Level Up! — Episode #23: On “Cheese Weasels”

Benoit and Hamblin spend a lot of time working on character optimization, but often we get accused of making characters that are too “cheesy.”

How much optimization is too much?  We discuss this issue with Michael from The Id DM. You can also find some further thoughts that Michael had after the discussion on his blog, here.

As always, we want your feedback!  Leave a comment below, email us at podcast@rovingbandofmisfits.com, or send a tweet to Benoit or Hamblin.


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11 Responses to Level Up! — Episode #23: On “Cheese Weasels”

  1. The Id DM says:

    Thank you for having me on the show! It was great discussing optimization and how it can affect the dynamics of the gaming group.

  2. Pingback: Discussing Optimizers With Misfits | The Id DM

  3. Wayne says:

    As a CharOp regular i have to say that you guys really have no idea what DPR is actually used for…

    DPR is Damage per round, and it is defined as the average damage a character can do in a given round using *only*at-will*powers* (no encounter or daily powers, no action points, no novas, no weird circumstances).

    This is simply used as a benchmark to determine the expected sustained damage of a given build.
    These builds are table-ready and the DPR vs Nova values are listed so easily help a player determine which build is right for them/their group.
    Typically DPR is referenced in 2 ways: for a build that relies on at-wills and takes a bit of a toolbox approach by selecting situational encounters and dailies; for a build uses a lot of combos, DPR is used to determine how much damage the character will do after its resources are exhausted.

    “Arts & Crafts” as you call it, is what CharOps actually call “Theoretical Optimization” – and is just that, an exercise to see what can be done given a set of (often obscure) circumstances. You’ll be hard pressed to see any TheoOp build be suggested for actual in-game use (but it may actually have a DPR value listed for giggles).

    • Benoit says:

      Thanks for the info.
      Just to clarify, when I talk about Arts & Crafts, I actually mean Arts & Crafts. You know, terrain building, miniature painting, miniature modification, that sort of thing. I’d never heard of Theoretical Optimization, but it’s interesting to know the difference between CharOp and TheOp.

  4. MileyC says:

    Great show, I dont think you can really optimize “too much” and go too far with it.
    Gaming groups just really need to get along, and then can lead to win.

  5. Pingback: What does it mean to be “cheezy”? « Ex Cathedra

  6. Popesixtus says:

    Hey guys, thanks for the podcast! It hits on exactly the kinds of issues I’ve considered as a DM and player in a home game as well as LFR. I even started a DMing-centric blog to empower DMs to really tackle issues like this from behind the screen. I put up a post entitled “what does it mean to be ‘cheezy’?” over there, but the short answer is that from a DM’s perspective, cheeze = more work for the DM. Crafting challenging encounters for optimized PCs is much, much more work than for plain old solidly built ones. That’s not necessarily bad, its just more work. Each DM can make the determination for themselves whether that more work is bad or not for them. I kind of talk about that and also give some tips that DMs could use in response.

  7. Popesixtus says:

    For some reason, the comment box linked to the previous post. Trust me, there’s a post on cheeze on there!

  8. The Id DM says:

    Thanks to those that are listening to the podcast and commenting above. Popesixtus, I’ll have to check out your blog; sounds interesting.

  9. Popesixtus says:

    Thanks! By the way, your D. Born rogue combo also gets a thumbs up from me. Be prepared to grant CA after you (hopefully miss with) Low Slash, though :D. Like I say in the blog, it isn’t the player’s fault that Low Slash is so powerful, which is kind of the thing that separates the combo from a normal double daily AP turn.

  10. Grimgrin says:

    The word your looking for (the opposite of optimization) is “quixotic”.

    Misfit also works 😉

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